GM in cahoots with EPA makes up 230-mpg number

Holy cnoicse data batman. Lol!

Felt so hopeless looking for answers to my qeustions...until now.

Pit Lab--It sounds like you are proposing a perpetual-motion machine. Good luck with that.

I'm sure this has been thought of before, and just as sure there's a sound reason for not putting it into practice, but if you have four wheels that are constantly turning while a vehicle is in motion, isn't that four potential generators, or at least two, one per axle?

my 97 mitsubishi mirage 4cyl std shift gets 40mpg local and 42 to 52 on hgwy in mountain terrain..who needs an ev that gets less..

AAA, take notice from one of your long time customers: The only practical reason for the ICE in the Volt is the peace of mind for the driver who is afraid of getting stranded after the battery runs out of juice (forget long-distance travels. Take airplanes, trains or buses, or rent a gasoline car for those rare occasions). If AAA adds a service (and makes money from a premium fee) to charge the batteries of their stranded customers from its fleet of service trucks, the Volt can be sold without lugging everywhere its mobile back-up battery charger.

With some sprocket changes my Yamaha TW 200 gets 90mpg Better than any other vehichle on the market today that can go over 55mph

In response to Brad C: When power goes out or brown outs occurs and does not allow you to re-charge etc.. 1. The others with only a PURE EV (Electric Vehicles) with NO range extender will be sitting lifeless - Nissan Leaf / Tesla - you get the drift 2. With the Volt - Wow - imagine - your Volt with the Range Extender will still be able to drive - what a concept.... No need to plug in and charge to allow it to drive...

I see at least 2 operational problems with the upcoming Volt. HORSE POWER: When driving more than 40 miles how much power does the little gas engine/generator provide? Not as strong as when running from the electric motor. Additionally you will be carrying around a heavy battery that is non-functional at this time. It is too bad that the battery can't be recharged while driving with an optional switch. Of course this will change all of the EPA mpg ratings. CHARGING: Many people do not have a convenient outlet to plug their car into everyday especially those in apartments. Plus many drivers will not bother or forget to do this daily task and just drive without recharging. I still see people running out of gas with today's cars.

I just want to know. Has anyone reviewed the supply chain side of electric power vs. petro power with regards to robustness to hazards? At home I know what happens when I plug too many lamps into a socket. The breakers trips or the fuse blows. The power company does not want me to run my air conditioner during peak hours now, what if I need a charge to see the doctor? The power goes out due to an ice storm or thunderstorm affecting thousands of people and its several days till the local outing is back on line. Suppose we are told to leave an area due to a coming hurricane, do we charge up our car or just walk? The current power grid is designed for present day power loads, new wind farms can't get power companies to add grids to wind farms,$$$. How robust is the power grid to brown outs and black outs whether by nature or by man or by politics? Will access to electric power be assured for those not living in the high population areas of the country? What is the cost of putting the infrastructure in place? Does electrical deliver double or triple in cost? Not saying this is the wrong way to go but do we have the concerns covered? Are we really ready for this? Is there a study done that addresses these concerns?

I used my old college physics book to derive a formula to calculate the mpg equivalent for an electric vehicle. Here it is: mpg equ = 33.6339 x miles per charge / kwh per charge The numbers I saw for the Volt were 40 miles per charge and 8 kwh per charge so: mpg equ = 33.6339 x 40 /8 = 168.169 So the mpg equivalent on electric power is 168.169 which is definitely less than 230 mpg. And the mpg on the ICE would be less than the 168 mpg. A calculation such as this could be used to factor in the electric mode energy consumption into an overall mpg estimate figure. The author had the number of 39kwh/gal. My number was slightly different. If his is more correct the formula becomes: mpg egu= 39 x miles per charge / kwh per charge. This would raise the Volt to 195 mpg on electric. If the kwh per charge is really 12 then its 130 mpg equ.

I'd really love to have 16 kWh of Li-Ion batteries in my Prius... heck I'll take 5 kWh at this point! I think Government Motors should be pushing Prius/Nissan/other hybrid PHEV kits instead of this Volt concept (oh sorry, Malibu mule prototype)...

Forget MPG - for the interest, say nothing of depreciation, on this Government Motors special I can buy a years worth of gas for my 22 MPG clunker! Geez, what idiots! And, yes, you can not ignore the cost of the fuel and investment that goes into the power plant to supply the non-gasoline part of the MPG. The only free lunch is in the liberal mind...

In general... your observations on the Volt's "real" mileage ... spot on. The real number is ~ 60-65 MPG at best. Other pieces of information: 1) Li-ion batteries... last longest if the charge is kept within ~20-85% of "full charge"... thus the reason why the generator kicks in when the battery gets down to ~30% charge. While there is variation in loading during continued driving.. and variation in the charge level being maintained ... The general point is: the generator isn't used to charge the battery to full charge (even if it is charging the battery directly) ... it just keeps you from being stranded once the battery charge has been used. Why have this restriction? I don't know. Likely reason: the often quoted "40 miles/ day" for commuting .. to get as much of the energy for the next day from your electrical outlet. 2) none of this will save (or help) the environment... it just changes the time frame or scale when the world learns enough to live within it's resources. Make better gas mileage? We just create more cars/drive more miles... Make less pollution per person? We just make more people.... Consume less energy for required tasks? We just make more tasks to perform... real solutions, require much harder choices.... population limits, lifestyle restrictions(how far is a reasonable commute? I know people that commute 200 miles / day, is this wrong? if so, what mileage/day is OK? 2? 5? 10? 40? ) , etc.... I don't see these facts being faced with current political systems or general populace. see: "Tragedy of the Commons" While the original basis was related to the Arms race between USSR and USA.. then related to population control.. the real issue was identification of problems not really solved - just delayed- by technology....

So I really wonder about the Volts performance when it is no longer using the battery. We can only guess at this time.

The 230 mpg figure is not related to energy in a gallon of gasoline or kWatts. They drove the thing for about 45 miles on a dyno and measured the exhaust to calculate the amount of fuel consumed. I'm guessing that since they went over the 40 mile range of the batteries, the gas motor kicked in for a short while during the test. The amount of gas used during the test equates to a 230 mpg rating.

Take mpg out of it and just have cost comparisons. Just post the average cost of running the Volt versus say a Camry for selected distances. 5 miles, 10 miles, 15 miles and so on. Excluding depreciation (which is the biggest cost of all fuel types), there will be a certain range where the Volt will be the most cost effective. If the Volt wins in the range of 25 to 45 miles and that matches your daily commute, then one has to weigh in the initial cost and depreciation. Depreciation might be lower if the Volt significantly reduces operating costs as the car would be in higher demand in the used car market. Those with shorter trips would still probably win by having a conventional ICE as their distances would not justify the initial cost of the Volt.

If I can find the place where they sell electricity by the gallon, then I can compare the new Volt to my old gas burner. Maybe the smart guys at the EPA and GM should tell us cost per mile. This type of “Analysis” should not surprise us based on both of these groups mastery of Economics. All of these fancy windmills and Solar panels don’t grow on trees. Someone has to pay for them. If it is you, you need to include that in the cost of your new Volt. Some people in this blog believe in frictionless perpetual motion. Maybe the laws of Physics have been repealed by the House of Representatives since they are in charge of everything else these days. Boy do we ever need REAL education in this country!

There is a simple explanation for the number. Government Motors.

Kind of reminds me of the Audio Wars of previous years gone by! Watts, RMS Watts and Instantaneous Peak Power ..... Remember now? I will say that you really can't fault them for creativity. Marketing will never change. The only constant on this planet is Engineering based on fact, not fiction and dreaming.

The volt is a Plug-In Hybrid. No one will buy it unless they plan to plug it in. That will normally be done over night at off-peak times. My air conditioner takes about the same current as charging my electric car (RAV4 EV), so if the grid can handle AC during the day, it can handle charging a large number of cars at night. There is no good way to come up with a single MPG equivalent for a plug-in hybrid, but this might be about as good as you can do. The number should get bigger for increased battery capacity because a higher percentage of trips use only the overnight charge and no gasoline.

Now this is crazy... Efficiency ratings: Internal Combustion Engine ~ 20%-25% Electric Motor - 78%-95% given load conditions. ICE are very wasteful.

Putting the power from a gasoline-driven generator through a series-hybrid battery before using it to turn the wheels doesn't "green" it; it just wastes 20% of it. The idea that it "just charges the batteries" is nonsense. BTW, the author is right about looking at gallons per mile, rather than MPG. The latter gives a meaningless number when averaged foe CAFE.

These plugin cars are a joke; Just as that 230mpg is, first off the electric grid will not take running hundreds of plugin cars, let alone thousands. And things like the volt are not fixing the real problem; We need cars charged by on site solar, wind, wave, etc. or that use hydrogen dirived by on site power generation using true renewable energy sorces; Not fantasy plugins that will be powered from the over taxed electrical power grid; Which is powered mostly by coal fired eletrical plants. My area probably has some of the best power grids in the country and still on realy hot summer days the power ocasionaly dips here and there. We have two nuclular power plants and many huge coal plants, plus dozzens of gas turbines covering one large city, a couple of good sized citys and mostly farmland. If people were to pluging cars in adition to all the normal stuff the grid would get overloaded on hot days and trip out possibly blowing transformers and definately causing power to be out for hours at a time; Or we would be in the same situation as california with rolling blackouts if the power company actualy kept on top of things, which in my area would be hard as most sub stations are not maned. The powers that be keep people forced to pay for every drop of energy we use and this greed is whats causing most of the worlds problems, were ruining the planet and at the moment its the only one we have. Why these people can't just sell people tri-mode roof coveryings that provide power weather protection and hot water for heating, etc. And small wind turbines, that could be things like a cupola on a roof with the wind turbine inside, to a little dutch windmill, to a small weathervane style. Or we could have small stirling engine power generators with parabolic dishes to harness solar power. Homes neer streams could have small drag turbines, or small water wheels to generate power. Or even better homes could have combinations of these and many other "free" power generators. And the rich fat cats could still make millions form the sale of all these products and from the intrest on loans to buy these products. Every light pole should have solar panels and small wind generators and small stirling generators, etc. Every power pole should have solar, wind, stirling etc. power generation. Every buisness's roof should be covered with solar panels, wind generators, solar generators, etc. Wind turbines should line country roads, more power dams should be built and dams that currently don't have power generation should have it added, rivers, streams, creeks, etc. should have dragline generators .... People neer the ocean should have wave generators. Catch the idea here! We have to ditch the old idea of burning fossil fuels entirely, besides think of all the other things we need them for such as plastics, synthetic fibers, lurbricants, just think what the world would be like with out many of the other products we get from fossil fuels. The world needs to get its act together and we need to do it soon or we mite be the last generation to live!

If this was a Japanese company, they would get congratulated on their technical superiority but because it's GM, it must be an evil conspiracy with the EPA. Yes, although liquid fuels may be used to generated the electricity, they do not factor into the MPG rating for obvious reasons (think with your brain here). Also, it is fair to apply MPG ratings to hybrids as they are still gas driven cars with electric assisting motors to boost their economy. They are still gas powered cars though (no, your Prius isn't really that high tech ... sorry folks). In fairness, MPG probably doesn't apply to the volt but it can still be used as a gauge of what it costs to run the car and with the Volt, the cost is way down. And one thing you can be sure of, electricity may go up but gasoline will go up even more making the Volt even more economical.

so how many tons of coal does it take to make a kilowatt and how much is the coal fired plan that runs most of America going to have to ramp up to support this "infinite" gas mileage. Isn't coal and gasoline coming from the earth and the exercise in all this is to not pillage the earth? That seems to be the big tree hugging argument... "save the planet". I know, how about we just not process steel since the ton of steel used to make the car creates so much damage, and yet those who profess to love the environment are driving instead of walking... Isn't the whole gas mileage thing just one perspective on energy consumption. If we really want to be more efficient, we need to use nuclear fuel. The Navy has done it for years. I'm still confused as to whether this argument for conservation and efficiency is a scientific debate or merely a political machine built so someone can profit at the expense of all of us: carbon credits and hybrid subsidies to name just two. Those guys at the EPA are merely cogs in someone's machine fed by the propaganda that they are making a difference.

The real point that GM has chosen to mislead an uneducated public, which is hardly the action of a responsible company. By applying an EPA test method designed for gas-only vehicles to a plug-in hybrid, one can obtain a stunning fuel economy figure. But, gasoline is only part of the fuel source, and this number is misleading regarding the true cost (economic and environmental) of operation. A responsible company would educate their customers about this fact, and petition the EPA to develop test procedures that properly measure the overall energy consumption of vehicles with multiple energy sources. The Volt, and other plug-in hybrids, transfer some (or most, in this case for the short EPA test runs) of the operating cost from the gas pump to the electric bill. However, there is a vast difference in consumer psychology between these two expenses. At the pump, consumers are acutely aware of exactly how much a given amount of driving costs them, because the gas only fuels the car, and they pay to refill within a short time of use, so there is a direct correspondence. However, residential electric bills are not itemized, and are paid about a month after consumption. So, the expense of recharging the car gets lumped in with other major electric expenses (pool pump, central A/C, electric heat, etc.) As such, it is harder for consumers to appreciate just how much of the vehicle operating expense comes from electricity. Carmakers know this, which is why they talk about the gas component of the plug-in hybrid operating expense, and seldom mention the electric expense. When they do, it is usually with misleading information, based on fictitious electric rates. For example, here is Southern CA, we have tiered electric rates, which rise sharply as you cross certain usage thresholds. (Many major population centers in the country have the same scheme; consider yourself very lucky indeed if you do not, and have some pity on the rest of us.) While my “average” rate is around 11 cents per kWhr, if I were to recharge a Volt, this would be additional consumption on top of my present bill. This additional consumption would be billed at the high tier into which it falls, around 25 or 30+ cents per kWhr, not the average rate. As far as I can tell from the gobbldy-gook in the GM press releases, a full charge replaces about a gallon of gasoline, and takes about 12 kWhr out of your outlet. 12 times $0.25 is $3.00, or the same cost as the gallon of gas replaced. So, the cost of driving a Volt, even if very little gasoline is used, is just about the same as any 40~50 MPG gas-only hybrid. And, if I drive a few hundred miles non-stop (as I often do on vacation), the overall gasoline consumption would be just about the same, as the original battery charge would be expended early in the journey. Consequently GM’s 230 MPG proclamation is very misleading to customers who do not understand these issues. There is a theoretical environmental advantage of plug-in hybrids, in that the emissions involved with the electricity generation are remote from the smoggy, traffic-congested city streets, and that diverse fuels (or other energy sources) other than gasoline can be used to make the electricity. However, this theoretical advantage quickly vanishes when one considers that the US is in an electricity generation crisis to supply even the existing demand. While we talk a lot about "green" electricity, the fact is that we are nevertheless keeping some of the oldest and dirtiest coal plants in operation just to keep up with present demand. So, at the present time the 230 MPG figure is somewhat misleading environmentally, as well.

MPG loosely means consuming some type of LIQUID fuel (gasoline, E85,Diesel..etc..) at a certain rate of flow that consumes one gallon for a given distance. MPG is a valid rating for a Normal Hybrid vehicles where the Gas Engine is still the primary energy source to move the vehicle. Like what was said before it does not make sense for Pure Electric Vehicles or Series Hybrid Plug in Vehicles. Your actual equivalent MPG / KWhr will vary. Just like normal Gas vehicles it depends on driving conditions of the terrain and the driving style of the driver.

These calculations seem to assume that electricity generation consumes no fuel.

So the reality is that the mpg figure is meaningless hype? I am just shocked! mpg just is not relavent for an efficient hybrid or a plug in of any type. Anybody for an operating cost in Dollars per mile based on 15 cents per kWH and $3.00 per gallon?

And I suppose your electrical utility company will let you charge the battery every night at their special FREE rate?

Update your thinking on the ICE for the Volt. It is a series hybrid. The ICE does NOT drive the powertrain directly. The ICE acts as a generator only keeping the batteries at a constant state of charge. The only thing connected to the drivetrain directly is the electric motor powered by the batteries. The ICE is NOT connected to the drivetain and therfore does not drive the vehicle. Research your facts a little better please. Also according the calculation, 8 of 10 drivers can get infinite gas mileage. Those people can go a long time without ever fueling up. So that would put that number all the way up...

The ICE will NOT drive the drive train directly.